What rights do we have as designers?!

[sticker]

Just a quick question folks!

I was recently commissioned to do some design work for a new client. It was a flash file. They accepted it as workable and asked for banking details which I sent. Pending payment, I would then forward the origional flash file. I had uplaoded the swf animation to my own server space for preview purposes...

A week passed with no word only for me to discover they had taken a screen grab of the flash file and integrated it into their live site. I sent them an email of harsh tone (all dealings with them previously had been unfavourable and disorganised) to which they responded in equal tone. I asked for a billing address for an invoice - which they have not responded to. It is now two weeks that they have used my design property without permission or payment. To be 100% honest, the request for the billing address has only been a few days ago, but the fact still remains they have used my work without permission or payment.

I will admit that my experience has been unfavourable from the outset with this 'company' and a lot of lessons were learnt on my end. Any advise as to how to proceed or anyone experience a similar situation? The fee in question is quite small so it is not so much about collecting on a bad debt - more what rights we have in these cases.

The same company is using stock photos on the same page that are 'preview only' (watermarked) - I assume they have not paid for these also.

Thanks in advance...

 

[Byron]

Two options:

1. name and shame, and then we can all avoid them.
(Probably not the best option for you though)

2. Report stock photograph breaches if you really don't want to work with them again.

Then get a solicitor involved. If the work is yours, you are entitled to use it / license it under Irish copyright law. Any unauthorised usage is breaching copyright law (which comes into effect as soon as a work is created by law) and therefore the person committing such infringements can therefore be sued. Solicitors love free consultations on such subjects, because there's always huge legal fees to be won. Ask your companies solicitor or I can recommend a few firms.

If they don't respond well to a solicitors letter, contact the stock company, inform them, and ask for an evidential copy of infringements for you to proceed with a legal case, evidence such as previous infringements can result in a much easier case.


- First step, contact your solicitor though.

 

[Byron]

To be honest with you, there is no place in business for people who blatantly rip off the little guy, I'd put them out of business if I could

 

[sticker]

To be honest with you, there is no place in business for people who blatantly rip off the little guy, I'd put them out of business if I could

I totally agree and thanks for the constructive feedback. It is indeed a very frustrating situation, but in this case (such a small amount of money involved) I don't feel inclined to pursue it legally. I know I started this thread to ask what my options are, so I don't want to appear cowardly, but I think I just wanted to see if other people have experienced similar issues!

I won't name and shame. Not really my style! But I can tell you they are a .i.e. start-up - with some experienced staff - a room full of coders with zero design attribute! I have been stung by 2 other .ie start-up companies in the past few months also where re-design of 'coded work' was requested... good feedback returned and additional polishing requested. Then radio silence - like they were fishing around and went with the cheapest option.

This is probably all part of the design game, but it's frustrating too! I find it hard to seek payment when it's a project in its infancy.

Would you guys set a price for such a project or do the work pending the clients approval? (sorry for going off-topic!)

PS - Has anyone persued legal action as proposed by Byron?

 

[Byron]

Ah,

I think I might know the company you are talking about ,

I personally have a little sequence of events to pursue debts, and nearly always get paid, its about playing the fear game with letters, with ideas of how much you could do, but not threatening them personal / defaming their company, rather... how much hassle would it be if I did this, this and changed your CMS's passwords, etc.

Little things which are stumbling blocks and really stop ejits in their tracks. Also you should probably have a contract for everything, even if they wont sign it, say their intentsion to contract orally, and by emails implying X work should be done will invoke your standard contract to come into effect, make sure they recieve a copy by email atleast though before you start work, and they reply to that email, or contact you otherwise on paper after that email has been recieved by them.

That is really the basis for being able to make other legal threats and have proper chats about what part of your contract they breached / what your solicitor (always say) *might* think (never say anything to implicate yourself or imply you will certainly do something), if they are nasty already, they will fight.

The key to keeping out of trouble is hedging your bets on bluffing, having tight contracts and if worst comes to worst locking things / damaging / closing down things they havent paid for, providing you are the actual provider. Never disable someone elses hosting, or do something which affects unrelated, or 100% paid for services, that is criminal damage.

You really could benefit from getting a "friendly" solicitor, who isn't entirely in it for the moral side, rather playing strictly by the law to advise you. The quicker you befriend one, the easier it is to deal with these types of problems and avoid them in the future. Always ask a solicitor first!!!!

 

[Byron]

Oh yea...

NEVER work on spec, if you are going to consult, or propose something, NEVER give them enough to go off to someone else.

Always try your best to get a deposit out of people, if you don't, they will screw you, end of story... never been paid in full by someone who didn't give a few bob up front so far.

 

[sticker]

Oh yea...

NEVER work on spec, if you are going to consult, or propose something, NEVER give them enough to go off to someone else.

Always try your best to get a deposit out of people, if you don't, they will screw you, end of story... never been paid in full by someone who didn't give a few bob up front so far.

Again... words of true wisdom Byron. I really appreciate the advice. I will change my working practice accordingly!

 

[louie]

... and next time you do something like this, make sure you water-mark it.
Anything like "Property of YOUR COMPANY"

 

[sticker]

... and next time you do something like this, make sure you water-mark it.
Anything like "Property of YOUR COMPANY"

Absolutely Louie!

 

[blueark]

I've used a solicitor a few times. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it's definitely worth getting one on board, even if it's just to tell you over the phone whether legal action will be worth pursuing. One thing to remember is that if a case goes to court, you can't get all your money back, only a percentage. That's why I don't bother too much with small bad debts any more -- sometimes it's more beneficial to just write it off against tax.

I think it's very difficult to do business in this country without running into a few con-artists, and unfortunately, some of them know exactly how to play the game, especially when dealing with smaller companies. Over the years, I've eventually stopped taking it so personally, although it took a long time!

The worst case that affected me was a guy who owed me 2k, and when it eventually came to legal action, he just claimed that he never heard of us, and someone 'obviously' was impersonating him! It was difficult to prove otherwise; I did gather enough evidence against him, but then it transpired that he had bipolar disorder, so my solicitor said it would be a waste of time pursuing him through the courts. I passed the details on to the Gardaí instead (along with about 40 others), and thankfully, he's now locked up for fraud. Another guy made a deal with me the day before a court case, so I called it off, which gave him enough time to close down his company, and get off the hook. Yet another paid in advance for a rush job, which I delivered to him a few days before the bank returned his cheque unpaid.

I reckon most honest people in business are naive at the start (I know I was), and like to think the best of people; you do the job, and of course they'll pay you. But, you live and learn, and adjust your work practices over time to protect yourself. Ironically, although payment is slower nowadays, I find that I've practically no bad debt since the recession started, yet I was all too familiar with it during the boom years!

 

[sticker]

Sorry to bump this thread again, but I could do with some advise as the situation has risen again.

This company finially paid me after much messing around. It was a very small fee. The job comissioned was for a flash button. I used a pre-made XML script I use all the time with other clients and sent it to them. The XML script works with the union of different files - not just a standalone flash file. Then their tech guy comes back a month later saying it won't work!

They tell me that they are using a specialised file structure to their site and need the code amended! I have tried, but the XML code requires very specialised code wrtiing to amend to their purposes.

As far as I can see, I gave this very difficult client what he asked for in the first place, he then took the preview swf I placed on my server, took a screenshot of it and used it on their mockup site. Granted it wasn't a finished work site, but it was LIVE and visitors could register - So took my design and used it without paying or answering emails or phone calls.

Anyway, I could just refund the few bob, but feel quite strongly that this company is taking advantage. Any ideas/thoughts would be welcomed.

Thanks -

 

[Pixelcraft]

Honestly you need to cop on sticker. You did the work, you've finally been paid, and now you're thinking about returning it? Tell them where to go.

 

[sticker]

Honestly you need to cop on sticker. You did the work, you've finally been paid, and now you're thinking about returning it? Tell them where to go.

You're probably right Pixelcraft - if not a litle blunt in delivery!

I've just been talking to my wife about this kind of thing. I've been developing sites part time for 10 years, but only started the company PROPER this year when I was made redundant from my main job. It really pains me that the majority of my workload this year has been clients who drag out the design process, make unreasonable demainds and then take an age to pay... in some cases not pay at alll. I know I'm not alone, that this is the nature of the trade when it comes to freelance developers, it's just poxy and tends to invades a bit on your overall work mindset.

I just find myself second guessing my own decisions a lot recently - It may appear back and white to others, but I ALWAYS play devils advocate in sutuations like this when a bad client appears.

You're probably right, I just wanted some clarification.

 

[Pixelcraft]

Didn't mean to be blunt sorry! but to survive in any business you need a tougher skin. I'm all for fairness, and providing excellent service to clients, but they were the first to destroy that relationship, once you've been paid I would burn those bridges completely - nothing good will come from this extra work.

If you really want to explore this work, tell them it's not what was initially agreed, will cost X and you need money upfront to start the work.

 

[sticker]

Didn't mean to be blunt sorry! but to survive in any business you need a tougher skin. I'm all for fairness, and providing excellent service to clients, but they were the first to destroy that relationship, once you've been paid I would burn those bridges completely - nothing good will come from this extra work.

If you really want to explore this work, tell them it's not what was initially agreed, will cost X and you need money upfront to start the work.

Fair point.

I would normally consider myself fairly tough skinned, but the last year has been harsh. The self-employed web developer takes it in the chin more often than not. When the buck stops with you, it's hard not to take it home - especially when thats your place of employ!

You're right though, I need be more objective in my standing - if I feel the best effort is made and the client is delivered what was agreed... That is THAT.

Cheers for the help and illumination!

 

[sparky]

The advice about always asking for a deposit before starting work is good advice IMO.

Rgds

 

[Byron]

There is also the thing now whereby at last in Ireland, it is acceptable to out non payers by requesting for a liquidation for any substantial amount, and small suppliers are finally ganging up on cronic defaulters. I've gotten really bored with tyre kickers in this whole market and I just wont work without a contract which I could file for a liquidation court hearing with others.

It is the one section of the law that really seems to be protecting suppliers at the moment since you can't really sue in Ireland anymore as we do have such a pass the blame culture.

Also, I read this book How to be a Graphic Designer, Without Losing Your Soul - Adrian Shaughnessy

which, although directed at Graphic Designers, it has really helped me to understand why bad clients don't turn good overnight, are probably having loads of other people on to, their associates are probably as bad and aren't worthwhile referrals and why they should be punished by using the agency model, and dumping them and hunting their competitors

On a serious note though, I really have grown alot closer to my main stead clientbase who are struggling. They are more loyal, I think unless someone is standing around with €2k plus at the moment they will waste your time, demotivate you, and probably won't take it serious enough to sign a contract.

And even if in good times a contract wasn't worth the paper it was wrote on, which it wasn't, where did all those loan documents go in the banks, today, collectively, the courts are so flooded, that the threat of a file for liquidation should have any really awful client wincing, as I said though, I would still never do it to a good guy, in bad times, but at least the option is finally being considered by people as ethical, which it is.